WealthTalk - money, wealth and personal finance.

WT023: Using Trusts To Protect Your Assets

Episode Summary

It's important to know what would happen and who could make decisions to keep your assets protected, well maintained, well organised and structured and continue to do that if for any reason you weren't able to.WealthBuilding is a management process. There needs to be some management, not least because things change, tax laws change our health changes, our relationships often change. We focus on the different types of Trust, Wills and Lasting Power of Attorney in this week’s episode of WealthTalk.

Episode Notes

Resources Mentioned In This Episode:

Listen to Episode 008 - Protecting Your Assets [The ROOF]

Listen to Episode 018 - SSAS Pensions [The Director’s Pension]

Make, register or end a Lasting Power of Attorney

Wording to check how your home is owned:
The Title Register Document will show the names of the people that own the property and, if you are tenants in common will also have wording similar to: "No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered unless authorised by an order of the court".
If there is no such wording in the Title Register Document then you are almost certainly joint tenants.

CLICK HERE FOR FREE MEMBERSHIP ACCESS

Click Here To Find Out More About The WealthBuilders Foundation Programme

Links to all WealthTalk podcast episodes can be found at
www.wealthbuilders.co.uk/wealthtalk

Join the WealthBuilders Facebook Group: www.wealthbuilders.co.uk/facebook

Episode Transcription

Chris Rodwell: Hello. Welcome to episode 23 of WealthTalk. My name is Christian Rodwell, the Membership Director and I am joined by Kevin Whelan, the founder WealthBuilders. Hello.

Kevin Whelan: Hello Christian. This is a good evening, isn't it really?

Chris Rodwell: It is indeed. It's bit of a late night recording session for us today, but we're looking forward to it as always.

Kevin Whelan: Rock and Roll Podcast Chris.

Chris Rodwell: It is. And we've actually picked up on something that our members have been giving us feedback on this week, and our foundation members have been focusing a last couple of weeks on The Roof. And we covered The Roof back in episode eight and The Roof is the protection of yourself and your assets, but specifically there's been some questions today around trusts. So, we can spend some time actually digging a little deeper into the different types of trust and if you need a trust, how to set a trust up, those kind of things.

Kevin Whelan: Sure. I think it's probably the most challenging one because it isn't something that people naturally hear about. So as a reminder Chris, they're all full basic elements in The Roof and The Roof, if you imagine the logo of our business, WealthBuilders is a foundation on which we know how to build solid things, seven pillars on which to build your wealth, and then a roof which basically makes the whole concept of your wealth watertight.

Kevin Whelan: And as a reminder Chris, I also will often say you don't wait till you build your wealth, before you protect. You protect what you've got as you go, because everybody's got something worthy of protecting. The main ingredients of that, which I know our students have been really doing well at, the easy things like making a will and I think they've been dealing with some gusto and getting it done.

Kevin Whelan: Then they've been looking into ... And then some with different views on the issue of power of attorney, the lasting powers of attorney. I think the big challenge around power of attorney is recent years Christie, powers of attorney deal with two things and historically they only really dealt with one. And the lasting powers of attorney they deal with health and welfare, what do you feel you want to have happen if you get seriously ill, what do you feel about how you want yourself to be looked after in some very young present situation you might find yourself in your health.

Kevin Whelan: And that's not always the most pleasant thing to cover, that's a matter of personal choice. And then there's this whole issue of wealth and finance, which is critical because you really want to be sure that if anything happens to you when you lose the capacity, which is the technical term, meaning having charge over your faculties really to make the best decisions that you can. And as we know, wealth building is a management process. It's not a passive game that you just sit and everything takes care of itself. There needs to be some management, not least because things change, tax laws change our health changes, our relationships often change.

Kevin Whelan: All of these changes mean it's important to know what would happen and who could make those decisions to keep your assets protected, well maintained, well organized and structured and continue to do that if for any reason you weren't able to do that. And one of our students actually, Chris I don't think I've shared this with you. It was really quite relevant and timely and also goes to show in fact how quick we can respond because we're doing this late at night, really responding to the questions we've had just recently. Just to let you know, we wanted to slide this one in and replace the one we had in mind because one of my clients hasn't been too well Chris.

Kevin Whelan: He's unfortunately been in a situation where he does not have the mental capacity to make those decisions. And we really wanted to make sure that we bring that knowledge, not about his situation, but about the situation that the worst happens and you're just not able to make those decisions. You've given permission for your family or if you have a business, your business partners, to be able to make decisions that can best protect you when you're least able to protect yourself.

Kevin Whelan: That's important power of attorney. I think there have been some questions about that, but most people are getting that done. I think the challenge with all of this is when they're looking at wills and powers of attorney together, there's always this fear that you're spending money without necessarily seeing an enormous value. You don't see an increase in your wealth.

Kevin Whelan: You don't see a measurable, tangible value. It's more of a peace of mind value. Some of the ways people can save money in this regard, you can register the powers of attorney yourself like anything actually Chris. If you think about it, whenever we talk about any action that might be worth considering in wealth building, there are three reactions that you can have and it takes us back to episode two I think-

Chris Rodwell: Yes.

Kevin Whelan: ... when we talk about the drifters, the DIYs and the dynamics and the drifters will just seek more information, more What do I need to know? What do I need to know? What do I to know? And won't get it done Frankly. The DIYs will... Quite rightly, there's some of this stuff that can be DIY, will find a way to do some things themselves and particularly registering the powers of attorney with a code of protection, you pay a small fee [inaudible 00:06:17] quid, but once you've done that, you can easily do that rather than pay the administration fee of a legal firm.

Kevin Whelan: But the dynamics will look at this in around and try and seek as much self guidance as they can and maybe to realize that sometimes it's important to seek the advice of a professional and we have got a number of professional people that we trust, so we might be willing, I don't think it's important to make the recommendation on the podcast quest, but it would be useful to say if anybody is struggling with this, they could give us a call, and we've a number of people we trust not only to do the work, but have a sympathetic style in doing this. And definitely not looking to bumping up sell people from basic will to something more complicated or, and so on.

Kevin Whelan: I think one or two of our students have felt when they've gone to get legal advice, there's a feeling that may be they're not getting the advice they should get, maybe they're just feeling that they're being accelerated to spend more money without knowing the reason why. It's just important that we come from a place of trust. We don't come at this from a place of we need to record recommendation or want to make a recommendation. Don't mind the people seek out their own and that's good.

Kevin Whelan: But if people are struggling, we're more than happy to help with people that I've taken years to build relationships. And there's a couple of people in particular, one person who's very much about face to face and seeing people because they feel that's the best way to make people feel at ease. And another person who is much more about trying to explain things remotely by phone because keeps cost down frankly.

Kevin Whelan: Both ways are just ways that you can deal with it. So anyway, that's the issue of the power of attorney. The other two areas Chris, of home ownership and the use of trusts are really causing people a lot of confusion and maybe be worth spending the rest of this Podcast with clarifying those points.

Chris Rodwell: Sure. Yeah. I think we share it in time. Just one final point on the last aspect as well. It's like many things, when you had to Google and you start searching on the Internet, you find a very wide range of offerings and some are as you say, more on the DIY things and can be under a hundred pounds and others which are several hundred. It does cause confusion of people and some people are uncertain of the validity of doing a will and those things, yourself online and do they really cover everything that needs to be covered? And therefore does it pay off to actually engage a professional to help? I think there is this uncertainty around the matter.

Kevin Whelan: Well I think everybody's different. If you think about a will in reality Chris, it's just a legal document that once it's written on the piece of paper or electronically stored increasingly, but let's say for the sake of an argument, people can imagine a document, once is written and then independently witnessed by two people who can't be beneficiaries. In other words, two separate people who are never going to benefit from that will, you've got yourself a legal will.

Kevin Whelan: The key issue though is knowing what are the things that are important to have considered, because I could make a will today and say, “This is the last will and testament of Kevin John Whelan, I'll leave everything to my wife and hands off anybody else who wants any of it,” and get it witnessed by two independent people, and that's a will. It can be as simple as that, but it belies the question of well, “Should I be saying anything or do I have children? Now my children are over 18 now, so that's no longer relevant. I had a different will when I had younger children, appointment of guardians,” and things like that.

Kevin Whelan: It's really just important to understand your own situation, you could have complexity in terms of lots of property or lots of assets or assets in different countries, and somebody with more knowledge can help you just do a better job. And usually, it's still only a few hundred pounds, and if you end up protecting something hugely valuable in your life and you get the peace of mind you're feeling, you've done a good job, not a job that could backfire in some way than spending a few hundred pounds with a professional [inaudible 00:10:58], just be worth your while compared to try to do on your own.

Kevin Whelan: But everyone's different. I don't really try and get involved too much. I think the more you build your wealth, the more you'll need professionals, which is why this whole issue of WealthBuilders is about tapping into the knowledge base of others in a trusted community. And perhaps what we need to do then is just introduce some of those people that we trust, Chris, where individuals are having some challenges.

Chris Rodwell: Yeah. And the key really is if you don't have a will just get a will done. Just as you say, get a simple will if you're uncertain and then at least that gives you that breathing space then maybe to investigate a little bit further.

Kevin Whelan: Yeah. Because having a will means you can change it. Not having a will means calm. You then caught in the terrible trap of intestacy. And that's definitely one that you can google, what are the intestacy rules? Which is the will, the factor you've got by centrally the government creating a set of rules that exist if you don't create a will in your own name. So definitely worth googling that. No reason at all not to get a will done. No reason at all, not to at least consider the powers of attorney and choose to do some or not it's up to you.

Kevin Whelan: But if you own a home, it's important definitely to consider how you own that home. And you may recall, Chris, there were two ways that property can be owned. If you're talking about a family, wife typically let's say, and those two ways are joint tenants and tenants in common. And the issue becomes more relevant as we get into the issue of trusts because for the most part, most people will own their home as joint tenants. Husband and wife, they will own them as basically together jointly and separately.

Kevin Whelan: And therefore, when you own your home as joint tenants, the home doesn't go through the will because the ownership of the property as joint tenancy automatically creates a legal relationship between the two parties. It just basically says, let's take that as an example, if I owned my home with joint tenancy with my wife, then if I die before her, she gets the whole property and if she dies before me I get the whole property. And our will has nothing to say about the property because the land registry document and the creation of the joint tenancy overrides anything.

Kevin Whelan: So there's no reason when people say, “Well how should I mention my property in your will?” Well you don't. If it's joint tenancy, you don't need to, because we're already taken care of. And joint tenancy sounds logical but it isn't always the best thing to do, because in some situations just understanding tenants in common might bring some added value and I won't go into all of the details, but I'll certainly cover maybe one or two of the key salient points. The tenants in common essentially then creates a different relationship altogether. It basically now brings the will back into play.

Kevin Whelan: It says, “Well I own my half share of the property and my wife owns the other half share.” So if I have a will, I've got to say what I want to be done with my half share. Now the way you check this, by the way, or you may want to change it, is just to look at the records on land registry for your property and there's a few bits of information in there if you were able to look.

Kevin Whelan: Now we look at these things all the time, Chris, at WealthBuilders. If anybody's struggling to find out the property, the registration of their property and they're struggling with it, if they give us a call and they're part of our community, we look it up for them. Okay. So we have a license to look into land registry. More than happy to help people do that. But the special set of wording and it's a bit complex, I think you've got the word Chris haven't you? What it says on land registry, if it's tenants in common?

Chris Rodwell: Yes I do.

Kevin Whelan: A bit of a [inaudible 00:15:18].

Chris Rodwell: Yeah. You need to check your title register document and that will obviously show the names of the people that own the property. And if you are tenants in common, it will also have this wording and it is a bit of a mouthful. If I share it in the show notes, that's probably best so people have a copy of that.

Kevin Whelan: Yeah, I think that makes a good idea. And of course, the issue is though, well why would anybody do that? And the reason you might have a property and you might want to create it as tenants in common or one of those reasons is, and I mentioned this on the Podcast when we talked about The Roof I think, is the issue of keeping and preserving the property in the family in the event to say, longterm care.

Kevin Whelan: Now this is only one example. I think I'll just give you one example so we can focus on trust. But if for example, then, I own my half share as a tenant in common and let's say you can own in any proportion you want. But for the sake of simplicity, let's say we call it 50, 50. So I own a half share of property rather than 90% or 80% or whatever percentage. Because I've got a half share, now I can leave my half share to whoever I want to in my will. Now, if I want to protect the property, I could leave my half share in a trust, which essentially only takes place now in the event of my death.

Kevin Whelan: So it doesn't mean I'm putting my property in trust. That means if I die, then my half share can be conveyed at that point, can be moved essentially and owned by a trust fund, which is being put in place, almost like a box ready to be opened in the event of my death. So it's a trust that often we call it a pilot trust, Chris. It's like a pilot light. So there's a little light lit under it, not literally of course. But it's like a box waiting to accept some money in the event of my death. And I'm being very simplistic here. So let's say for the sake of an argument, if the property was worth 500,000 just because the maths is easy, I can need my share, which in this case will be 250 into trust in the event of my death.

Kevin Whelan: But with the trust being written with full flexibility for my spouse to live in the property and treat it as if she had full rights of occupation and she could sell a property, move to another property and so on. But what does it actually done? Well, creating that trust is really remove the half share of the property into a trust fund with all the discretion of my family or whoever my beneficiaries are, to do what they need to with our property. But the key thing is then if my wife then later goes into some form of care, then she's assessed really only on what she has and what she has is half a house. So it's protecting the property in the event of her going into some form of care.

Kevin Whelan: And then if she dies, then her half share can be placed in a trust as well. So what that's doing is protecting, in this example, 500,000 pound property to lots of 250,000 again, being simplistic. You'd expect property might increase in value between the death of one and another, but maybe not. And what you're really doing is saying, well, the property is protected in a trust. So it also protects it from the next generation. If they were to get divorced or if they received a property directly, it could be part of their estate and their assets.

Kevin Whelan: There just clever ways of being able to use an asset that you're going to keep in your life, you're going to want to have in your life. And it's just a way to do that. There's no legal obligation to do it. There's no right and wrong here. It's just a question about how important is it to you to protect your property in the way that we've just described, by placing the property or your share of it into trust only on your death.

Kevin Whelan: Let's reassure people, Chris. We're not saying you put your property in trust. You don't. You probably exactly doing what it's doing. But on your death the trust becomes alive. That's when the pilot light switches on if you like. And that's when the property would put go into that trust fund. Is that an explanation that works for you?

Chris Rodwell: Yeah, it is. And you mentioned what discretionary there and I know that this has come up as well in our Facebook group, which is the difference between discretionary versus absolute. I think it's worth just to define that so people understand the difference between the two?

Kevin Whelan: Yeah, because soon as you start googling trust, you're going to get all sorts of different wordings and different kinds of trusts. I'm only really going to talk about three types of trust, Chris. I think that's as far as the wealth builder needs to go. Right now I don't need to go any further than that. We're going to talk about these trusts now, which are what we call pilot trusts.

Kevin Whelan: We'll talk about life insurance trusts, and we'll talk about pension trusts. And I'll come back to what a trust is in just a minute as we circle back, and maybe I should have covered this earlier on but never mind. The point about discretionary versus absolute is, in life nothing is certain, we really don't know what's going to happen to our health, our relationships, our business, our jobs. We don't know what's going to happen.

Kevin Whelan: I can't think of a circumstance really or the circumstances were very rare that you would know what you want to do with your assets absolutely today, that will never, never, never, never, never, never change. So if that isn't likely and you don't see that, then the trust will always be discretionary, which basically means you're giving power and flexibility to the people who operate that trust, the trustees to be able to make decisions that are good for the family, and will further help to both enhance and protect the wealth of the whole of the family and generations to come.

Kevin Whelan: I think we should probably not really dwell too much on absolute trusts. And we don't need to go into the other definitions of different trusts, I think we just can stick with the ones that we need to pay attention to, which are the three that I've mentioned. The purpose of a trust it's really a place to protect and ring fence something.

Kevin Whelan: And this is a matter of law that's been going for generations and generations and generations, literally hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of years, trust laws being in place. And the purpose of a trust really is to put something somewhere, and create a set of rules. Well, the most popular ones that exist are first of all, the life insurance trust.

Kevin Whelan: Well, why would life cover and trusts go together? Well, it's slightly more obvious there because when you're building your wealth and building your assets, you want to keep control over those things because you're there to enjoy them. You're there to enjoy the cashflow, enjoy the capital, enjoy the use of the assets and be flexible on how you want to deal with those assets. Life assurance isn't really like that too much because, if you die, you're not going to see the proceeds. You're never going to get the money.

Kevin Whelan: You will never be the beneficiary of your own life policy. Now there are some situations where there's different ways to set up and different types of life cover, but let's be simple about this. Most people will have life cover because they've got a debt or because they want to provide either a capital sum or some form of ongoing income to a family, who would be left in financial distress in the event of the death of another.

Kevin Whelan: Stated differently, if you're not wealthy yet, and you've got a family you would like to be wealthy but you just haven't created the wealth yet, then you can use life insurance to provide some kind of a capital sum that will enable the next generation or the people who you want to be wealthy with you, just you weren't there to do it and you want that money to be paid to them, but [inaudible 00:24:42] be paid to them through the will. In other words, you die, the death certificate goes to the insurance company and they say, “Okay, we need now to the will because the will needs to be proven for the proceeds to be paid down.”

Kevin Whelan: What if you drifted on it? What if he didn't get around to doing the will? What if your situations got complicated? That life insurance policy could be in the coffers of the insurance company for years until all of this gets unraveled. Can you see how the importance of all these things all joined together as Chris?

Chris Rodwell: Yeah.

Kevin Whelan: But if you need life company choose to have it, that's up to you. If you choose to have it, then a simple additional form. It's a one pager. You don't even have to pay a lawyer to do it. All insurance companies will have a document which is a trust document, which they will allow you to fill out a form that says, “In the event of my death, I would like the proceeds of this life insurance policy, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven to go to ...” And let's be simple.

Kevin Whelan: If it was, “I'm on the proceeds of my policy to go to my wife whose name is ABC.” And I sign that document and life insurance trust is done. Then in the event of my death, the insurance company just need to see the death certificate. They don't need to see probate granted, they don't need to go through the process. Why? Because the policy overrode the need for the will. It just said go straight to Mrs or Mr Whoever it would be.

Kevin Whelan: And so that's number one. And number two, if the proceeds are in a trust, then it's possible to again have the proceeds of that life policy paid into one of those pilot trusts from the [inaudible 00:26:51] box that the proceeds for the life cover now get paid by the insurance company, but they get paid into a box, they don't get paid into your wife's bank account or your husband's bank account, they get paid into a box.

Kevin Whelan: Now why would that be useful? Well, it might be useful if you want the proceeds of that policy to have the same flexibility as you would want with the property. So it doesn't form part of your estate. Or you've got flexibility for your wife to choose what she wants to do, or husband to choose what they want to do with those proceeds. And keep them ring fence and protected from inheritance tax if that's what they want to do. Now is a little bit more complicated than that, but certainly for today's Podcast, let's keep it as simple as that. Any thoughts or questions around that Chris?

Chris Rodwell: No, that makes sense.

Kevin Whelan: Okay. And the thing to bear in mind is some people when they get mortgages and they talk to insurance brokers or [inaudible 00:27:50] brokers, they will often have a policy which will pay a lump sum on death and a lump sum if they get critically, I would say cancer or heart attack, stroke, you name those horrible things. And often they're together. And what you can do in a situation like that is, you can just contact the insurer, whoever set it up for you or just insurance company directly.

Kevin Whelan: If you no longer using an advisor or if you did this online, you contact insurer and you can create a document there called a split trust. What that means is, is the critical illness cover is deemed not to be in trust because if you get cancer, you want the money yourself. You don't want to pay that into something into a box, that you need control outside of the estate. You want the money now because you're the one to pay off your mortgage or you want to change the way you need to live your life.

Kevin Whelan: So a split trust, new critical illness cover will not be in trust for the life insurance part will be in trust and that's quite normal as well. Any good mortgage broker, any good life insurance broker will contact us if you've got any doubts or concerns so you don't feel like you're going to have to pay somebody fees to do this. We're more than happy to help you out, if you're part of our community because we don't want you to drift on this.

Kevin Whelan: It's the important thing ... The reason we're doing this Podcast Chris, is to respond to people who I think will go in danger of drifting because they needed to know lots, lots more than really ... In some cases they do need to know more to feel that they're in tune with their decision making. But sometimes when it gets complicated, people get a bit lost.

Chris Rodwell: That's right. And so I guess that leads us with the third type that you mentioned, the pension trust.

Kevin Whelan: Yeah, so, all pensions, whether a personal pension, an occupational pension and the SSAS pension which is very common amongst our community, you're building pensions under their own stewardship and control where they become the trustee. If you hear the word trustee, you hear the word trust, don't you? All trusts are operated by trustees. It's just that you know or we're sure who the trustee is. If you've got an insurance scheme, let's say you've got a pension with any insurance company, ABC insurance brokers or ABC insurance limited rather, then the people who are the trustee will be the insurance company and you will be deemed to be the beneficiaries of the trust. But the trust is still there.

Kevin Whelan: Now there are some challenges with that in principle as to who's making the decisions and what can you invest in and so on. But that's not the focus of this session today. It's more about, “Well, if it's a trust, what is it doing for me?” Well, a pension because it is a trust is protected from tax.

Kevin Whelan: Pension trust is protected from income tax, from capital gains tax from corporation tax and from inheritance tax. It's really important then to recognize that in order to make that valid or at least to make it effective, you need to nominate, just like I said, on the life insurance policy, you need to nominate a beneficiary.

Kevin Whelan: Who will be the beneficiary if you're no longer around when the pension pot is still there. Again, whether it's a work pension or personal pension or SSAS pension, then you need to nominate beneficiaries. So it's a trust in itself and it's inheritance tax free. Now, SSAS work slightly different way because you can bring your family in so you can make your family trustees because you become the trustee and you're creating almost like a company, like a board of directors or board of trustees.

Kevin Whelan: There's definitely much more control, much more empowerment going on there. But all pensions are really a form of trust, anyway, Chris. For the purpose of simplicity, I would say a good serious wealth builder should have the following. They should certainly have a valid will and if they have a spouse or partner, make sure that the spouse or partner has a valid will. They should have at least considered very seriously the two forms of power of attorney, they should seriously consider if they've got debt, or if they want to make sure there's a need for capital, if their wealth building plan does not reach its fruition that they have some life insurance and they put that life insurance in trust.

Kevin Whelan: It doesn't cost anything to do that. It's just a simple document. And then if you're concerned about the ownership of your property, check your property ownership currently. Read the show notes which tells you what it says and if you feel the need to change it, you can do so. But then it would make sense also to have a conversation about pilot trusts, which is the use of a trust to accept the asset in the event of your death. You're not putting it in while you're alive. The pilot trust is there just to accept something and only becomes effective on your death.

Kevin Whelan: These things, yes, there's some complexity, but because we've got people we trust if you're getting stuck, raise your hand, please let us know. Otherwise, if you're getting it done and you're feeling like you're in control, I think it would be great just to let us know. We've got a feeling that most people are getting this job done. Because when it's done, the piece of mind that it brings and just the momentum of maybe making another decision because in truth Chris, if you get your head round this, or you can get somebody to help you get your head around this, this is a job that could be done within 30 days.

Kevin Whelan: This does not have to be dragged out for months and months and months. Yes, you can change your mind later, you don't want to leave some money to your brother because you fell out with him. You can leave him out, but then you can change your mind later. All these things can be changed. What's important is you've got something in place. I'll recommend anybody to get started, take no longer than 30 days, get some help if they need to get help, get it done.

Chris Rodwell: That's been brilliant Kevin. And I've been just scrolling through the foundation Facebook group, making sure we have covered everything. I'm pretty sure all the questions that were posted in there over the last couple of days have now been answered. And this is now obviously been of value for everyone listening to the Podcast. Thanks for demystifying the area of trust for us today.

Kevin Whelan: Yeah, it's not the most exciting subject. It's not the thing that's going to get people excited about, creating more wealth. But it serves two purposes. One, it says, the importance of doing things when you can. And two that, just as we talk about putting things in trust, it's important if you get stuck to find somebody you can trust. So, the word should permeate everything. You'd go to a place where you feel that you're not being taken advantage of, that you feel that you can get it done and done. Yes, you're going to pay somebody some fees. I'll take a guess, Chris. If somebody is doing everything and they were using a professional, probably two wills, two trusts or four pounds of attorney, if they go for all of those and possibly pilot trusts for [inaudible 00:35:55] tenancy for their property, somewhere between two to 3000 pounds on guess.

Kevin Whelan: If it's a little more or a little less then that's fine, but you put a value on that and say, “Well, do I need all of that?” If not, what can you do? Just do what you can do and you don't need everything in place stay on as long as you've got certainly made a will and [inaudible 00:36:22] power of attorney. You don't need to settle the tenancy on your property. A life insurance trust is free and a pension trust is free. A few thousand pounds in the end that could protect all of your assets until you need to tweak it again. I don't think that's too big a price to pay. The biggest problem people have is not the money it's really just understanding that they've done the right job.

Chris Rodwell: Great. Well I think we've really gone deep on trust today and thanks again for that Kevin, and we'll be picking up where we left off next week, which was the investment pillar and-

Kevin Whelan: All right. When some people might ask questions, “Should I put my investments in trust.” When you get to a certain point where you've amassed so much and you've gone through the barrier of financial independence into abundance, that's when you stop picking up trust then. That's when you start to think about putting things into additional trusts, because now you've got so much more money than you can possibly spend. And that's a different challenge altogether, and that's the challenge we will all be facing if we keep making one decision every 30 days compounding and compounding, compounding. Let's get this one done and we can move on to the investment thing next week and have a bit of fun doing that.

Chris Rodwell: Absolutely. Well, thanks again Kevin. We'll be back with another episode of WealthTalk next week. Thanks for listening.

Kevin Whelan: See you.